The Bolla Blog

Sponsors

The Lounge

Wicked Cool Jobs

Syndication

News

  • Settling into a new job/life in the Pittsburgh area.
Images in this post missing? We recently lost them in a site migration. We're working to restore these as you read this. Should you need an image in an emergency, please contact us at imagehelp@codebetter.com
Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time

    Today I had my first on-site interview, set up via an IT staffing agency. The position was described to me as a contract position in Cleveland Ohio with a company looking for .NET developers with strong database skills. I checked out the company's website which looked nice enough and agreed to the interview. This morning, I made the almost-two-hour drive to meet with my interviewers "Van ***" and "Slick" (as I will call them), which was to be my first (and last) direct contact with this employer. Van *** was the head project manager and in charge of the current development team of approximately roughly twenty. Slick was one of the lead developers who would conduct much of the technical screening portion of the interview. After ten minutes of small talk... what the company does... why I am jobseeking... bleh bleh bleh... we started the technical screening.

    Not surprisingly, the 45 minute technical screening consisted of roughly half database questions and half .NET questions. The database questions were pretty easy stuff... What's the difference between an inner join versus left join. Write a query (on paper) that joins two tables. What's the difference between primary keys, foreign keys, and indexes. Clustered vs non-clustered indexes? Advantages of stored procedures? Explain Cartesian product. Those are the few I remember. I thought most of the database questions were fairly good questions to ask. Slick's last question to me during the database part was "When can you start?" I was also feeling good about the way things were going at this point.

    The .NET questions were of the same caliber... What is the advantage of the ViewState? What's the difference between app.config, web.config, and machine.config? (Doesn't this question kinda answer itself?) Have you used web services, windows services? C'mon guys, try harder than that.

    We also went over several of the technologies on my resume that they were not familiar with... Subversion (never heard of it? bad sign #1), NHibernate in particular. I explained how Subversion's update/merge/commit paradigm differed from SourceSafe's check-in/check-out paradigm. I explain the basic concept of O/R mapping. We also talked about unit tests and automated builds and their current lack of said items. Ok that's bad but here's a great opportunity for me to come in and put boots to ass. Those are things they are looking into but haven't had time due to having too much work to do. They are currently looking to expand from 20 to 35 to handle the current workload. Once they have the people on board to support the workload, they will begin to add some more process improvement procedures such as automatic builds and unit tests.

    The next big red flag was when Van *** explained that the company didn't allow the use of open source tools because they want to have a company to hold accountable (read: sue) when things go wrong. Wow. Let's see... Subversion, TortoiseSVN, VisualSVN (not OSS but dependent on it), KDiff3, NHibernate, NUnit, NAnt, RhinoMocks, CruiseControl.NET... all gone from my toolbox? And those are just the ones I know I use every day! There's another question to add to my list. I guess if you gave me Team Foundation Server and upped my salary another 30K I might take the job. Then the deal breaker...

    Van *** says "...blah blah blah the main VB6 application..."

    I ask "So is the project a migration of the VB6 application to .NET?"

    Van *** replies "No we do not have time to do that with our current workload. You would be doing maintenance development on the application."

    I respond with  "I was under the impression that this was a .NET job. I guess the VB6 thing would be kind of a deal breaker for me, because I feel that is actually a step backwards for my career. But if you're in need of fifteen more developers, it sounds like you could specialize with some .NET developers and some VB devel..."

    "No that is a deal breaker for us too. We need someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Thanks for your time." says Van *** as he stands up, opens his office door, and points with an outstretched hand.

     I start "Are you sure? I think..."

    Van *** injects "Thank you for your time."

    As I stand up and am escorted out the front door, I bewilderedly say "Ok. Uh well thank you for your time. I'm sorry things didn't work out. Good luck."

    I got in my car and began my 100 mile trek in the opposite direction, thinking "What the f*** just happened?" After taking a half day off from work, putting 200 miles on my car, and going through their interview process, I expected a little more professional courtesy at the end of the interview, even if I'm not the right man for the job. He could have entertained me for a few minutes with some shop talk before wrapping up in a friendly manner. (That's what I've always done when interviewing candidates that I wasn't gonna hire.) Instead he burned the bridge beyond repair. Not only will I never work there, but I will tell any of my peers who might happen to be looking in the Cleveland area to avoid this place.

     The irony of the situation is that what they actually need is a full time developer who's job is process improvement and mentoring of their current staff. They need to commit a number of hours per week to augmenting their process with some automated builds, unit tests, some proper object orientation of the code base, and so on. In given time, maybe six months to a year, those twenty would be doing the work of thirty five or more. They are too busy working hard to start working smart. These are all things a person like myself could bring to the company, but if they treat other interviewees with the same disrespect with which I was treated today, then they will have a hard time finding such a person.

 
Update: PS: The profanity filter is blocking my nickname for him, which was a reference to his facial hair. Which is also a derogatory term for a lady who has relations with other ladies. Hah!


Posted 09-11-2007 6:59 PM by Jim Bolla
Filed under: ,

[Advertisement]

Comments

Eugene wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-11-2007 10:21 PM

Ha! You must not have been the first one who got scared even hearing about "maintain current VB6 application" :))) Keep the rubric going, good stuff! Thanks!

Sean Chambers wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-11-2007 10:29 PM

I am enjoying your series on finding a new job. I am always interested in interview processes and horror stories. I myself being in public education have the benefit of not having the worry about profit so when I read stories like this I count my lucky stars.

Even though you took a half day, drove 200 miles etc... I would be extremely thankful you find all this out now rather than a week after you start. What a rude individual to just shoosh you out like that. Their loss, not yours =)

I will be interviewing some people soon for a development position and am hoping and praying I don't have morts by the boatloads come in for an interview. Our last computer tech. position had one "developer" that applied, he claimed to make a timesheet application by himself, with no legacy code that was written in C++, VB6 AND C## (i didnt hit pound twice, he actually typed C##)...I won't even go into detail about his education =)

good luck!!

KG2V wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-11-2007 10:46 PM

You'll probably find this is a fairly common issue.  Many (most?) long time VB shops will have Legacy VB6 apps (and gasp - I know of more than 1 with VB3 apps) as well as .NET 1, 1.1 and 2.0 apps.  You'll probably have to put in some time maintaining some of the old legacy application, while also working on greenfield stuff.

Sometime the legacy apps just don't have the budget to be ported

That said - most shops will allow OSS tools - and think process automation is a good thing, but they often get in the mode of "we're too busy fighting 'gators to drain the swamp"

Jim Bolla wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-11-2007 11:01 PM

Sean: I bet he pronounced it "See pound pound". Plus "no legacy code" and "written in C++, VB6" is a contradiction. :-)

KG2V: My issue isn't that the have VB6 apps. That's going to be very common. My issues are that 1 - that wasn't apparent from the start, which would've saved me the trouble and 2 - the interviewer's behavior at the end of the interview was unprofessional. I tried my best to be diplomatic about it and offer up a possible solution but was cut off before even finishing my sentence. I wonder if he treats his employees the same way.

Jim Bolla wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-11-2007 11:16 PM

Also, in regards to "we're too busy fighting 'gators to drain the swamp", anyone who feels that way at their current job should read "Sustainable Software Development: An Agile Perspective" by Kevin Tate. You can pick it up on the cheap (less than $20 on ebay) and it's a pretty quick read (176 pages w/o the appendices). It will help get you in the mindset of trying to work smarter instead of working harder and outlines the major practices to make that happen.

Jared Roberts wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 1:12 AM

I really enjoy your posts an got a good chuckle, although at your expense.  Thanks for the laugh.  Good luck.

VB6...... ROTFLMAO.

P.S. - You got me thinking. How about a post on the tools you use, i.e. www.hanselman.com/.../ScottHanselmans2007UltimateDeveloperAndPowerUsersToolListForWindows.aspx

Hector Sosa, Jr wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 2:06 AM

Yikes!

I would have been quite peeved too at that 2 hour drive and the "You under-estimated our sneakiness" stunt. I've had a few of those when I was early in my career.

The "No OSS" policy is a deal breaker to me. And not hearing about Subversion? Yikes, again!

I now grill the staffing agency (if going through them). If they can't answer the questions, I ask that I can talk to somebody in the client company. I will have a phone screen when dealing with employers myself, to exactly the wasted day situation.

Also, don't ever go a staffing agency's office, unless it is to sign a contract. It's a total waste of your time. I also don't give them salary history, or references. I always tell them that "I would be happy to provide the references, when the client requests them."

Good luck on your job hunt, and keep up the posts. They are quite interesting.

Derik Whittaker wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 7:59 AM

@Jim,

Just think it could have been worse.  

They could have told you that they were going to move/transition/re-write their vb6 app to .net and that was the reason they were hiring you.  Then after you were hired in you would have found out the truth and would have to start your hunt all over again.

KG2V wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 8:05 AM

Jim,

Oh - I agree - if their attitude is what you said it was - totally unprofessional

RE Gators and Swamps - often then line programmers, and even team leads are busy using every available free minute draining the swamp (doing sustainable stuff etc) BUT upper management - ot even department level managers (often the same guys saying no OSS) are doing their best to prevent this (or at least so it seems)

Over the years (I've been a developer for 25 years now) I've worked everywhere from shops SO bad that 3 of us went out and bought source control licenses out of our own pockets (Back in the Days of Microsoft Delta - say 1993?), - that place was so bad that when I gave notice at 12 weeks, I was the Sr guy in a dept of 12!!  On the other hand, I've worked at places where the management understood developers

Now, I'm at a place that's somewhere in between - Management gives us some time to improve processes, but there is only a subset of developers who want to

Tom Opgenorth wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 8:53 AM

Interesting story.  You should make a mention of this to the IT Staffing agency as well.  It kind of makes them look bad when they send a guy to a .NET interview and it turns out to be a VB6 job.

HC wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 11:34 AM

Derik,

That's what my situation is right now...

>>They could have told you that they were going to

>>move/transition/re-write their vb6 app to .net and

>>that was the reason they were hiring you.  Then after

>>you were hired in you would have found out the truth

>>and would have to start your hunt all over again.

Jim Bolla wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 8:16 PM

Jared: I'll consider making a tools post in the future.  The list will probably be changing in the near future.

Hector: Yes. The lesson learned is always talk to the employer on the phone first before any significant travel.

Derik: Yeah that is pretty much the worst case scenario.  If a company were to do that, I would definitely quit immediately and out them publicly via this blog.

KG2V: I agree. I think the OSS paranoia is an immediate indicator that the company doesn't truly understand the current ecology of software development. This is not the same as a company that chooses a commercial tool over the OSS tool because they did the research and the commercial tool was a better fit for the job.

Tom: I've already discussed this with the recruiter and have been assured the next one will be 100% .NET.

HC: Ugh. That sucks. I hope you didn't pass up a good opportunity to end up in that trap. There should be some kind of recourse against blatant dishonesty like that. Like work there for 6 months, start your job hunt, and then when they least expect it, set the building on fire. :-D

Erik Lane wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-12-2007 8:23 PM

I ditto on what Hector said.  You need to grill either the staffing agency or their client before you go in for a face to face.  I suggest requiring a phone interview prior to an in-person interview.  I do and for those that won't...you probably don't want to work there anyway.  Those that do...realize their time is important as well and want to weed you out before they waste their time on your interview.

The Bolla Blog wrote Finding A New Job, Week 2 - Observations From The Interview
on 09-16-2007 1:21 AM

What a week! It started with the lousy first in-person interview on Tuesday, and then several phone interviews

Kalpesh wrote re: Finding A New Job, Week 2 - How to Waste Five Hours of My Time
on 09-18-2007 11:54 PM

Hi Jim,

I am enjoying your posts on interviews.

Looking at this one, Isn't it ironic that we always want to work with new tools & don't want to be left behind?

I am in the same boat & I think - what is it that we work for?

microsoft or the businesses who use those software?

Also, the job market always wants people with next version of what you already know. Doesn't it look like Microsoft is experimenting things at the expenses of our career (we running all the time) ?

At the end of the day, we develop software so that it helps businesses do things better. To biz, it won't matter whether it is vb6 or .net 1or .net version x.

Just my opinion. I understand your stand & as I said, I am in the same boat (sadly)

Add a Comment

(required)  
(optional)
(required)  
Remember Me?

About The CodeBetter.Com Blog Network
CodeBetter.Com FAQ

Our Mission

Advertisers should contact Brendan

Subscribe
Google Reader or Homepage

del.icio.us CodeBetter.com Latest Items
Add to My Yahoo!
Subscribe with Bloglines
Subscribe in NewsGator Online
Subscribe with myFeedster
Add to My AOL
Furl CodeBetter.com Latest Items
Subscribe in Rojo

Member Projects
DimeCasts.Net - Derik Whittaker

Friends of Devlicio.us
Red-Gate Tools For SQL and .NET

NDepend

SlickEdit
 
SmartInspect .NET Logging
NGEDIT: ViEmu and Codekana
LiteAccounting.Com
DevExpress
Fixx
NHibernate Profiler
Unfuddle
Balsamiq Mockups
Scrumy
JetBrains - ReSharper
<-- NEW Friend!

 



Site Copyright © 2007 CodeBetter.Com
Content Copyright Individual Bloggers

 

Community Server (Commercial Edition)

CodeBetter.Com